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2011-10-03 Gen2 FJR Headlight / Fan Relay Anatomy dissecting a Gen2 relay

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 08:26 PM

Failed headlights started this thread.



Thought I'd document with pix the inner workings here -



Note that the primary side of this relay still functioned. Click, Click. Tapping the relay results in current delivered to the load. 



Dissected. Interesting design. The copper 'plate' on top, with the 3 'button's, is actually the hinge, spring, switch, and is pulled down when the primary is energized causing contact closure. 



Another view. The frame at right of coil is actually a conductor for the secondary switched side and goes directly to the large 'silver' plated terminal.

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Another view. Clever design, but it sure doesn't appear to be much surface area on secondary side to flow current needed by two H4 bulbs..

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The secondary side copper-colored terminal presents power to the 'hot' contact point. If it's as looks, that point is the center 'button' in the first pix or pix following this one.

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That's it for now. 

Tomorrow I'll lift the hinge and examine the secondary contacts. The relay was clean, no dirt, grime, and the hinge area felt of a very fine, light oil. All in all, the relay looks plenty good. My hypothesis is that the current carrying contact is a wee bit small for the current load.



Anything else you'd like to see before I essentially destroy this relay? 
Walked away :) Posted Image Is it really crashing if you don't fall down?--

I wouldn't change a fucking thing; I've lived hard, played hard, and I ain't done yet. I've paid some severe penalties along the way, but the rewards have been so much greater; even if for just have participating in the game of life with utmost abandon. It's not who rides the furthest in a day, but rather in a lifetime. CBA member #1, IBA #31845 and very proud of both.

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#2User is online   RaYzerman19 

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 06:32 AM

Looks good, probably pitted contacts... BTW, how many miles on this baby? If we could really guess, how many ignition cycles would be helpful to give an estimated time to failure for the rest of us, but no matter. Are you also using higher wattage bulbs than stock? 
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#3User is online   dcarver 

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 08:02 AM

View PostRaYzerman19, on 04 October 2011 - 06:32 AM, said:

Looks good, probably pitted contacts... BTW, how many miles on this baby? If we could really guess, how many ignition cycles would be helpful to give an estimated time to failure for the rest of us, but no matter. Are you also using higher wattage bulbs than stock?

Roughly 12,258 cycles. I'll look at the contacts tonight. 

Walked away :) Posted Image Is it really crashing if you don't fall down?--

I wouldn't change a fucking thing; I've lived hard, played hard, and I ain't done yet. I've paid some severe penalties along the way, but the rewards have been so much greater; even if for just have participating in the game of life with utmost abandon. It's not who rides the furthest in a day, but rather in a lifetime. CBA member #1, IBA #31845 and very proud of both.

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#4User is online   ionbeam 

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 08:57 AM

View Postdcarver, on 04 October 2011 - 08:02 AM, said:

View PostRaYzerman19, on 04 October 2011 - 06:32 AM, said:

Looks good, probably pitted contacts... BTW, how many miles on this baby? If we could really guess, how many ignition cycles would be helpful to give an estimated time to failure for the rest of us, but no matter. Are you also using higher wattage bulbs than stock?

Roughly 12,258 cycles. I'll look at the contacts tonight.



Relay Life Expectation is sort of iffy but 12k cycles is nothing. As much as I looked through the specs I didn't find a Deer Strike specification. However, there are mechanical shock and vibration ratings listed for Functional and Destructive levels. A common minimum Destructive Mechanical Shock spec is 100Gs. How hard did ya hit that deer?



Contact life expectancy is load and cycle dependent, but should still be in excess of 100k cycles. The coil and mechanical part should make 1e6 cycles.



If the contacts were to see a sudden high current inrush (like may happen when a deer crushes the front of a FJR and mashes all the wiring) the contact(s) could have suffered damage.



As I mentioned in the previous thread, I expect to see contact failure. The question is if it is a de-bonded contact button or a burned contact. 

Alan S.

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#5User is online   dcarver 

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 09:25 AM

Quote

As much as I looked through the specs I didn't find a Deer Strike specification.

:rofl:

The DSS isn't published, you have to experience it first hand, Ionbeam!



I think it's crappy relays. My hi-lo dimmer did the same thing. Other peeps have experienced similar if not exact same relay symptoms. 



JamesK

Pons (Similar, not exact)

JoJoFjr1300 Fan Relay (same as headlight)

Murph - Gen1

Amberdaz



Blame it on the superior Gen2 mW output? :huh:

Walked away :) Posted Image Is it really crashing if you don't fall down?--

I wouldn't change a fucking thing; I've lived hard, played hard, and I ain't done yet. I've paid some severe penalties along the way, but the rewards have been so much greater; even if for just have participating in the game of life with utmost abandon. It's not who rides the furthest in a day, but rather in a lifetime. CBA member #1, IBA #31845 and very proud of both.

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#6User is offline   Geezer 

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 09:44 AM

Don,



Before you completely destroy that relay, it might show you something if you energize the coil and watch it open and close. There could be some mechanical wear or other damage there that you can detect as it works. 
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#7User is online   dcarver 

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 05:28 PM

View PostGeezer, on 04 October 2011 - 09:44 AM, said:

Don,



Before you completely destroy that relay, it might show you something if you energize the coil and watch it open and close. There could be some mechanical wear or other damage there that you can detect as it works.

Beat you to it, Geezer! It mechanically operates fine. 

Walked away :) Posted Image Is it really crashing if you don't fall down?--

I wouldn't change a fucking thing; I've lived hard, played hard, and I ain't done yet. I've paid some severe penalties along the way, but the rewards have been so much greater; even if for just have participating in the game of life with utmost abandon. It's not who rides the furthest in a day, but rather in a lifetime. CBA member #1, IBA #31845 and very proud of both.

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#8User is offline   Constant Mesh 

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 04:56 AM

The switching contact of that relay has an easy life. It never has to interrupt current flow. Once it's pulled in and powering the lights it remains on until the ignition is switched off. The ignition switch interrupts the headlight current.



In comparison the hi/lo beam relay has a much rougher life except it probably operates much less frequently. When you toggle this relay its contacts do interrupt current flow so the contacts will erode over time. 
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#9User is online   dcarver 

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 05:34 AM

View PostConstant Mesh, on 05 October 2011 - 04:56 AM, said:

In comparison the hi/lo beam relay has a much rougher life except it probably operates much less frequently. When you toggle this relay its contacts do interrupt current flow so the contacts will erode over time.



..and here is the proof.



The top side not so bad.

Posted Image



The bottom contact, pitted.

Posted Image



Posted Image



Posted Image



I opine, given the number of relay failures, OEM relays are undersized for the load. 

Walked away :) Posted Image Is it really crashing if you don't fall down?--

I wouldn't change a fucking thing; I've lived hard, played hard, and I ain't done yet. I've paid some severe penalties along the way, but the rewards have been so much greater; even if for just have participating in the game of life with utmost abandon. It's not who rides the furthest in a day, but rather in a lifetime. CBA member #1, IBA #31845 and very proud of both.

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#10User is offline   Constant Mesh 

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 05:59 AM

The stationary contact appears more dirty than pitted. That contact gets a lot of help from the ignition switch. The headlights don't switch off until the ignition is switched off. The relay coil drops out a few milliseconds after the ignition is switched off. The ignition switch takes a beating. It breaks a large current and it does it relatively slowly -- hand speed slow.



Don't know the continuous amp rating of that relay? The circuit includes a 25 amp fuse. The two headlights would appear to be a 10 or 11 amp load. There may be a surge current when the cold lamps are first switched on. 
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#11User is offline   huron52 

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 08:10 AM

Sorry ... I'm confused here.... What are we trying to do?





Maybe unrelated: But you never know



My headlights stopped working on my GEN1 first it was the highs and then both. Discovered that the plug for the relay have wiggled out and was not making contact. Plugged it back in put a tiewrap on it and problem solved. Don't ask me what I went through before I found that. 
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I never get to go anywhere :( 

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#12User is online   dcarver 

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 11:04 AM

View Posthuron52, on 06 October 2011 - 08:10 AM, said:

Sorry ... I'm confused here.... What are we trying to do?

 



Determine why these relays are failing at a fairly regular rate... 

Walked away :) Posted Image Is it really crashing if you don't fall down?--

I wouldn't change a fucking thing; I've lived hard, played hard, and I ain't done yet. I've paid some severe penalties along the way, but the rewards have been so much greater; even if for just have participating in the game of life with utmost abandon. It's not who rides the furthest in a day, but rather in a lifetime. CBA member #1, IBA #31845 and very proud of both.

 

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