Very good stuff in this thread.  I may never do it myself but I am certainly learning a lot here.

At the speed available from your wrench and the minimal torque you applied to the crank, I would go back in there and attempt to reset the cams before dropping it off at the dealer.

Quote

Very good stuff in this thread. 

 

I've bookmarked this topic for future reference.

Edited by BobCo, 13 March 2016 - 09:54 AM.

 Out of all this comes some positive learning from a negative experience........ one knows what to do next time or on your first valvecheck/shim change.  While checking your valves, you're spinning the engine, taking your readings, or perhaps taking a second set of readings.  If you are going to change shims, it is best to spin your engine to leave #1 at TDC, crank and cam timing marks aligned, cam chain tie-wrapped at crank and at sprockets, loosen CCT, proceed with shim changes.  With the cams back in, it is then easy to verify the timing marks are all still OK at a glance.

I read through this thread and had a major deja-vu! Pants, you did exactly what I did with LCB's bike. I ended up learning a trick to skip a link to adjust with the cams installed too.

 Out of all this comes some positive learning from a negative experience........ one knows what to do next time or on your first valve check/shim change.  While checking your valves, you're spinning the engine, taking your readings, or perhaps taking a second set of readings.  If you are going to change shims, it is best to spin your engine to leave #1 at TDC, crank and cam timing marks aligned, cam chain tie-wrapped at crank and at sprockets, loosen CCT, proceed with shim changes.  With the cams back in, it is then easy to verify the timing marks are all still OK at a glance.

I also made sharpie marks where a tooth sat in the chain for each gear and only removed one cam at a time. After both cams are torqued back down and the tensioner is re-installed, a double check of the marks in all 3 places ensures it's back together right. More of a sanity check really. 

Wonderful support on this, friends.  Much thanks to everyone.

 

Mike came over today - we are probably going to give it another shot next weekend.  Yesterday in our deepest frustration, we threw our hands up and started buttoning up the bike to ship off to the dealer.  Looking back, we probably should have just stopped, started this thread, and slept on it.  Things would be much clearer today (as they are).

 

If it's broke, I don't think we can break it any more by trying again.  Ray's series of steps seems logical.  Take the cams out, spin the crank and verify a couple of knock free revolutions, put the cams in time and install.  If we are able to get the cams to line up in time with the crank, we can spin the crank and verify nothing unusual and the timing marks re-align on time.  Then we can take a compression test on the motor and if we get that far, I think we will be home free.

 

One way or the other, I will be updating this thread.

Attaboy Pants! Keep after it. 

Oh shit - bingo!!!  We have a winner.  I'm almost certain we were using the marks with the arrow for both the intake and exhaust.

 

If that's the case and I've cleared it up for you, then it's a bit of karma!!! I'm shifting that transmission you salvaged from Patriot'sbearing-failure motor, so if I helped with this, then it's kind of a payback!  

This has been like watching one of those serial adventure shows they used to show before the matinee movies when I was a kid. Our current show leaves us with our stalwart hero resolving to pick himself up and make another charge at the evil forces of Dr. Doom. 

Can't wait until the next installment....... 

Pants, after you get everything in time and back together, you'll also be re-measuring the clearances.  If any of them has become very large, that's your sign that a valve is bent.  A bent valve will not be able to close fully, so the clearance will be increased

 

If they all measure good and what you expected to hit after the adjustments you made, then you are good to go.

I for one hope that we have reached the peak of this particular drama (or the rock bottom depending on your perspective).

It was very good for us to take a break yesterday and simply calm down.

I went back today and re-read everything, including a very detailed email from Ray (Thanks much, my friend) and I really think things are much clearer now. I do have a few follow up questions:

1. Ray - in your post #11 - is it your understanding that the orientation of the cam lobes pictured is what the #1 cylinder should look like. IOW - the view of that drawing is looking at the motor from the left turn signal side? If that is true, then the #4 cam lobes would be facing inward toward each other (as in Fred's picture).

2. Woofooshee - I'm still trying to understand the "lead" the cams part? If I understood you in post #16, by "forward" side, you mean the side of the chain that is closest to the exhaust header? Keep that side tight when installing the exhaust cam. Then keep the chain between the cams tight as we install the instake cam. Have a got that correct? I'm also thinking that I will zip tie the crank at TDC, then zip tie the exhaust cam after it is installed, then zip tie the intake cam after it is installed, then (and only then) release the cam chain.

3. In the same drawing shown by Woofooshee in post #16, there are cam lobes drawn in hidden lines behind the cam gears. Are those the cam lobes for cylinder #1 (I'm just backing up question #1 in this post)?

4. Also in the same drawing, on both cam gears, there appears to be some small notches or marks identified by an "A". May I assume that the orientation of the "A" marks ensures that we don't get the cam gears 180 degrees out of sync?

5. Trivial question - what does the "E" mean that is stamped on both cam gears?

6. Can anyone confirm that when the crank and both camshafts are oriented correctly for timing purposes, that at this instant, there are NO valves open (partially or fully)? IOW - are all of the lobes off the buckets? I think this is important. The reason we had trouble in the first place was because we were trying to over come the valve spring(s) to set the camshafts down. This very little amount left no slack in the chain to work. We were able to use the bolts (4 of them) on the cam bearing/block (the one with the lateral camshaft guide built in it) to overcome the valve spring. But it would seem to me that it would be a whole lot easier to set the time if we didn't have to fight a valve spring. If one (or more) of the valves is open (or partially open) when the cams are in time with the crank, can anybody indicate which (and by how much)?

7. Bob - in your post #25, you indicate that you learned a trick by "skipping a tooth". Can you elaborate on this, please?

8. Finally, thinking positively that we can in fact DO THIS, can anyone provide the torque spec for the crank rotor bolt? There was no lock tight on that bolt, but should we use some and if so, which kind (blue or red). Anybody have a problem with my previously proposed method of torqueing this bolt (bike on the ground in 5th gear, front wheel against a wall, rider sitting on the bike stomping on the rear brake)? Of course the compression of the pistons won't provide enough resistance for me to torque this bolt. If I meet a stop on a stroke, then we know there are much bigger problems than torqueing that bolt. I could use my impact wrench and hunk down on it, but the last thing I need now is a stripped or sheared bolt in a crankshaft. LOL.

At least for me - when dealing with any challenge, it's very important to fully understand where you came from and how you got here before you start moving forward.

Based on this, my best guess is that we had the intake cam out of time by about 45 degrees (lined on the arrows, not the straight marks - the difference in the drawing post #15 is about 45 degrees), and this caused the #4 intake valves to push open against the TDC of that piston. The valves moved the piston clockwise about 10 degrees. I know this because after assembly, I could rotate the motor clockwise about 150 degrees before a stop, followed by counter clockwise in the same amount. Upon stopping after the counterclockwise movement, the crank was about 10 degrees clockwise from TDC.

Of course what we don't know is if I bent #4 intake valves during assembly, or some other valves when I hit the stop 150 rotational degrees later. A set of tests should confirm this one way or the other.

As for the rest of you (including those of you that have sent PMs with well wishes), I am indeed humbled by your encouragement. We will give it another go and hope for the best. This thing is not the boss of me. I'm the boss of it! 

Yes, in that drawing of the cam sprocket and the timing marks, the dashed lines showing cam lobes would be the #1 cams, way on the opposite end of the camshaft.

 

Yes, when the #1 cams are in that position, the #4 cams will be in the position shown in my photo.  The #1 and #4 cylinders are 180 degrees apart.

 

The FJR engine;'s firing order is 1, 2, 4, 3 so the #2 and #3 cylinders will be exactly 90 degrees and 270 degrees retarded (located CCW from the chain end) from #1's cams.  They will be depressing some valves slightly at #1 TDC, but do not want to rotate the cam shafts as I recall.

 

What Intech was saying is to intentionally skip a tooth in the CW direction when putting the slack chain on the crank sprocket so that you will be on the right tooth when you tension the chain tight.  This is easiest accomplished if you turn the crank backwards a few degrees (CCW) from the timing mark when fitting the chain.  It is impossible to fit a tight chain over the sprocket teeth with everything exactly at the timing marks..

What Intech was saying is to intentionally skip a tooth in the CW direction when putting the slack chain on the crank sprocket so that you will be on the right tooth when you tension the chain tight.  This is easiest accomplished if you turn the crank backwards a few degrees (CCW) from the timing mark when fitting the chain.  It is impossible to fit a tight chain over the sprocket teeth with everything exactly at the timing marks..

I was moving the position of the exhaust cam not the crank, so to give me a little more slack I pushed the chain guide up and away from the crank sprocket. I was doing this to move the exhaust cam CW as you look at the sprocket end. It gave me enough slack to take the chain off the cam and rotate it to the right position. The only thing you have to be careful of is to keep the slack at the cam, so it doesn't drop off the crank. It actually was easy to do after I figured out how to position everything. If I had someone else there with me I could have taken a video as it is almost impossible to describe.

 

I am not sure what I did wrong in the initial process, but it is likely that the chain moved on the crank as i didn't take that cover off initially. I had it off for the final install, so I could see all the marks. The hardest ones to see are on the cam sprockets. A good light and a straight edge were helpful. It is also helpful to know that the marks you reference are different on the sprockets (noted earlier).

Bob,

 

You should hold a clinic on this at your upcoming tech day http://www.fjrforum....2016/?p=1270366. There has to be someone that wants to do a valve check!

Best keep it as simple as possible....... taking the cams out is like rebooting your computer..... fresh start.....  now you place the cams as shown in the diagram(s), ensure timing marks are aligned as best you can get them, snug down the cam bolts (I do a progressive tightening to avoid any pressure in one spot that would crack/break a cam, even though there may be little danger).  If all is aligned to #1 TDC, etc. then everything else is going to be in the right place.  Verify the timing marks again, and if you have to tweak a cam's position by one tooth, you'll either remove that cam again or use the "skip a tooth" method... verify again once you've released the CCT..........  keep it simple.

 

Fred brings up a good point to check the clearances again to let you know if there's an issue with the valves seating....

The reason that I mentioned turning the crank backwards slightly while slipping the chain on that crankshaft sprocket is because it is easier to back the crank up than it is to move the cams forward since you'll then be fighting the valve springs. 

 

The reason they warn you in the FSM to only rotate the crankshaft in the forward (CW) direction is because that keeps the chain tight on the forward run down from the exhaust cam down to the crank.  Rotating the crank CCW can pull the slack out of the rear chain run and compress the CCT, and would allow the chain to start skipping teeth on the crank or cams.  Since the chain is not yet connected, there is no problem with backing it up a few degrees to slip the chain on.  Then rotate the crank back CW to the timing mark and check the timing marks.   

 

Like Bob said, it's easier to do than to describe.

The reason that I mentioned turning the crank backwards slightly while slipping the chain on that crankshaft sprocket is because it is easier to back the crank up than it is to move the cams forward since you'll then be fighting the valve springs. 

 

The reason they warn you in the FSM to only rotate the crankshaft in the forward (CW) direction is because that keeps the chain tight on the forward run down from the exhaust cam down to the crank.  Rotating the crank CCW can pull the slack out of the rear chain run and compress the CCT, and would allow the chain to start skipping teeth on the crank or cams.  Since the chain is not yet connected, there is no problem with backing it up a few degrees to slip the chain on.  Then rotate the crank back CW to the timing mark and check the timing marks.   

 

Like Bob said, it's easier to do than to describe.

Well I must clarify that the technique I was describing was to rotate the exhaust cam with it INSTALLED. That is why I did give the slight CCW turn on the crank AND push the chain guide up enough to get the slack required to disengage the chain from the cam sprocket.

Very good descriptions regarding the "leading" portion of my concerns.  I do understand what you are writing and will hope to get everything correct.  Regardless of how I do it, as long as I get all of the CORRECT timing marks aligned with the chain tight, and the rotate the crank two revolutions and verify all marks re-timed, then I guess I'm good to try a compression test and hope for the best.

 

Anybody wanna take a stab at the torque for the crank bolt?

FSM says 47 ft. lbs. for the crank rotor bolt....... seems like a lot....  wait to final torque it after the engine is all back together, spark plugs in.  You might get close.  Be happy if it's close.

1. Ray - in your post #11 - is it your understanding that the orientation of the cam lobes pictured is what the #1 cylinder should look like. IOW - the view of that drawing is looking at the motor from the left turn signal side? If that is true, then the #4 cam lobes would be facing inward toward each other (as in Fred's picture).

Answered above

 

 

2. Woofooshee - I'm still trying to understand the "lead" the cams part? If I understood you in post #16, by "forward" side, you mean the side of the chain that is closest to the exhaust header? Keep that side tight when installing the exhaust cam. Then keep the chain between the cams tight as we install the instake cam. Have a got that correct? I'm also thinking that I will zip tie the crank at TDC, then zip tie the exhaust cam after it is installed, then zip tie the intake cam after it is installed, then (and only then) release the cam chain.

Answered above

 

 

 

3. In the same drawing shown by Woofooshee in post #16, there are cam lobes drawn in hidden lines behind the cam gears. Are those the cam lobes for cylinder #1 (I'm just backing up question #1 in this post)?

Answered above

 

 

 

4. Also in the same drawing, on both cam gears, there appears to be some small notches or marks identified by an "A". May I assume that the orientation of the "A" marks ensures that we don't get the cam gears 180 degrees out of sync?

a refers to the holes in the #4 lobe closest to the sprocket. Those holes are straight up on a correctly timed cam when #1 is at TDC on compression, and line up with the arrow on that cap nearby..

 

 

 

5. Trivial question - what does the "E" mean that is stamped on both cam gears?

The E is for "Exhaust." The holes by the stamped 'E' are where the bolts go through the sprocket to attach to the exhaust cam. those holes are empty on the sprocket attached to the intake cam.

 

 

 

6. Can anyone confirm that when the crank and both camshafts are oriented correctly for timing purposes, that at this instant, there are NO valves open (partially or fully)? IOW - are all of the lobes off the buckets? I think this is important. The reason we had trouble in the first place was because we were trying to over come the valve spring(s) to set the camshafts down. This very little amount left no slack in the chain to work. We were able to use the bolts (4 of them) on the cam bearing/block (the one with the lateral camshaft guide built in it) to overcome the valve spring. But it would seem to me that it would be a whole lot easier to set the time if we didn't have to fight a valve spring. If one (or more) of the valves is open (or partially open) when the cams are in time with the crank, can anybody indicate which (and by how much)?

I'm pretty sure one of the cams has valves opening on one of the cylinders 2 or 3, and the other one has the other cylinder with some valves partly open.

 

 

 

7. Bob - in your post #25, you indicate that you learned a trick by "skipping a tooth". Can you elaborate on this, please?

Answered, but I'll add that my term "leading" and his term "skipping a tooth" are the same thing. It's impossible to install the cams with the marks lined up and the chain tight. You either back the crankshaft a few degrees to give the chain enough slack to get the cams in, or you install the cams a tooth ahead of where they belong so that when the tensioner comes down on the chain, they'll back into the correct position.

Once the cams are in and the chain on them, ONLY turn the crankshaft clockwise. That's why you start with the crankshaft backed a few degrees rather than setting the cams forward; gives you space to turn the crank to its mark without having to go all the way around.

 

 

 

8. Finally, thinking positively that we can in fact DO THIS, can anyone provide the torque spec for the crank rotor bolt? There was no lock tight on that bolt, but should we use some and if so, which kind (blue or red). Anybody have a problem with my previously proposed method of torqueing this bolt (bike on the ground in 5th gear, front wheel against a wall, rider sitting on the bike stomping on the rear brake)? Of course the compression of the pistons won't provide enough resistance for me to torque this bolt. If I meet a stop on a stroke, then we know there are much bigger problems than torqueing that bolt. I could use my impact wrench and hunk down on it, but the last thing I need now is a stripped or sheared bolt in a crankshaft. LOL.

First, not sure why that bolt would have been pulled. No reason for it just for the cams.

But since you asked, the manual does not call for locktite there, and the torque is 45 n-m, or 33 lb-ft.

The manual does call for for locktite on the bolts for the pickup coil itself.
 

Double-checked torque for the rotor bolt..... '06 FSM is 45 n-m/32 lb-ft. but Gen III FSM says 65 n-m/47 lb-ft...... this may be an error, and I thought it high, so I'd go with the '06 spec.  I don't see the harm in using loctite.

hppants,it isn't so easy to bent the valves by your hand and your ratchet, so don't worry about that..Don't ask me how i know it... 

Ray - thanks for the clarification re: rotor bolt torque.  I removed that bolt in order to remove the chain from the crank during our debacle last weekend.  Mike's bike is a Gen II, we will go with the 32 ft. #.

 

Wfooshee - and thanks to you as well.  Your most recent post (ref #4) will be helpful.

 

Mahalis - I think we will be OK.  I called the dealer yesterday just to get some vocal information and advice.  Like all of you, they actually encouraged me to continue.  The service manager quite matter of factly told me that ".... if you know enough to describe the problem as you just have, then you know enough to put it back together right....".  Like many of you, he said that if we actually bent a valve from turning it by hand, that would be the first time he has heard of it (20+ year mechanic).  Oh - he's heard of many a bent valve from RUNNING the motor out of time.  He's also heard of many a motor in our situation - turned by hand out of time - thankfully, no bent valve stories yet.

 

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the pistons tops for the FJR have recesses in them in the shape of the valves?  If so, that definitely helps, IMO.  When I pushed a valve(s) against the top of the piston by hand, the entire surface of the valve mated with the piston.  When thinking about bending valves, that would be more stable than just touching (lightly banging) the edge of the valve at an angle against the top of the piston.

 

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you in trouble.  It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."  Mark Twain

 

Mike and I are going to give it another try Friday afternoon.  Will update as we go.

Drink lots of beer.  Say the words, "Watch this..." before you start.

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

.

 

 

Okay, maybe not.

 

But take video of the engine running after you get it back and running...and then crack open that Hamms beer.

Here are the fjr pistons.Again,it is very difficult or better,impossible to bend the valves by your hand and a ratchet.So,don't worry about that! The valves are made from a very strong alloy steel!

They do indeed have the dimples, but that's for how close stuff gets during compression and exhaust and not to clear a fully open valve. 

Yes, ^^^^^ but these dimples can help a lot in a mistake ''by hand,ratchet'' to protect the valves because the slope that they have i believe..

Placing a straightedge across the head will help you see if the alignment marks on the cams are in the correct position. It just helps reduce any parallax issues and a really good flashlight (or torch for our friends across the pond) is a good tool to have for this task. 

 Out of all this comes some positive learning from a negative experience........ one knows what to do next time or on your first valve check/shim change.  While checking your valves, you're spinning the engine, taking your readings, or perhaps taking a second set of readings.  If you are going to change shims, it is best to spin your engine to leave #1 at TDC, crank and cam timing marks aligned, cam chain tie-wrapped at crank and at sprockets, loosen CCT, proceed with shim changes.  With the cams back in, it is then easy to verify the timing marks are all still OK at a glance.

 

I just did my first valve check and set the cams aside only.  I only removed the cams when #1 was at TDC and the alignment holes were aligned with the arrows on the #3 camshaft caps.  I never spun the motor unless the cams shafts were back in place and the alignment holes lined back up with the #3 camshaft cap marks.  If you remove the cams and then spin the motor, then you have a whole new alignment issue.

Yes, ^^^^^ but these dimples can help a lot in a mistake ''by hand,ratchet'' to protect the valves because the slope that they have i believe..

 

Not much. Those dimples do not clear the valves if the valve is actually open from a mistimed cam (i.e. cam chain skipped some teeth.)

 Out of all this comes some positive learning from a negative experience........ one knows what to do next time or on your first valve check/shim change.  While checking your valves, you're spinning the engine, taking your readings, or perhaps taking a second set of readings.  If you are going to change shims, it is best to spin your engine to leave #1 at TDC, crank and cam timing marks aligned, cam chain tie-wrapped at crank and at sprockets, loosen CCT, proceed with shim changes.  With the cams back in, it is then easy to verify the timing marks are all still OK at a glance.

 

I just did my first valve check and set the cams aside only.  I only removed the cams when #1 was at TDC and the alignment holes were aligned with the arrows on the #3 camshaft caps.  I never spun the motor unless the cams shafts were back in place and the alignment holes lined back up with the #3 camshaft cap marks.  If you remove the cams and then spin the motor, then you have a whole new alignment issue.

Wait! A valve clearance check is done with the cams INSTALLED. Why would you set them aside?

You can easily check the cam position using a simple right triangle.  The camshaft caps with the alignment arrows have a vertical line extending out on the side next to the cam lobes with the alignment pips.  Lay the right triangle down on its side atop the cam lobe with one edge against the side of the cap with the right angle corner against the vertical line on the cap.  See where the lobe pip is relative to the edge of the triangle.  If everything is correct the pip should just be visible at the edge of the triangle.

 

You don't need to look at the marks on the sprockets just use the cam lobe pips.

 

With the triangle down on the cam lobe it's easy to see the pip's location with very good precision.

Yes, ^^^^^ but these dimples can help a lot in a mistake ''by hand,ratchet'' to protect the valves because the slope that they have i believe..

 

Not much. Those dimples do not clear the valves if the valve is actually open from a mistimed cam (i.e. cam chain skipped some teeth.)

Agree if the engine runs!But if you turn the engine by your hand and if there something is out of alignment,these dimples can help to absorb some force from the pistons to the edge of the valves..My opinion.

C/M - I'm trying to picture what you have described, but it's not clicking. It sounds like you are suggesting a way for me to verify correct timing without having to look at the alignment marks on the outside of the cam gears. This is desirable because, as you know, seeing the gear alignment marks with the engine in the frame is difficult at best.

What is an "alignment pip"?

A picture might help, although you might not be able to provide one.

Regardless, I'd just use this as a triple check to the traditional FSM method. Transferring the marks to the inside of the gear will definitely get me within 1/2 of a cam gear tooth, which is accuracy needed to meet the objective. I can then use a dental mirror and head light to verify the actual marks on the outside of the cam gear.

Mahilis gets what I was suggestion re: piston tops. It's an interference motor - one revolution at speed and it's grenade city. But just turning by hand, I'd rather have a valve touch (or lightly tap) the top of the piston across the entire diameter of the valve than have it only touch one point on the circumference.

Obviously, I don't trust anything in the Chilton's manual anymore. Can anyone please verify the torque spec for the cam bearing caps as 88 inch pounds?

Also, what does the Yamaha FSM say regarding compression test pressures? I realize that if I have a bent valve(s), the numbers should be proportionately lower in that hole(s), but I'd like to know what is considered normal?

I really feel that I have a true understanding of this now. I definitely know what I need to do. Hopefully tomorrow, we will have some good news. 

Pips = the dimples in the back of the #4 right-most cams that I posted a picture of previously.  Those holes can be used to confirm the proper cam timing, but I would also attempt to use a mirror and view the marks on the right end sprockets. 

 

Two alignment checks are better than one.  

Pants, the more time you throw at this to try to fix it yourself, the more money you will have to pour on it later.

 

The questions you are asking, and the follow up questions that you are asking, indicate that it is not really fair to the owner of this bike that you continue to work on it.

 

Find a dealer with a good mechanic and trailer it to them.

 

The bad news is that this is their busy season, and the bike may have to wait for some time.

 

The other thing you could do that might be fair to your friend is accidentally back over it in your driveway ... of course I'm kidding (wink, wink, wink), but you get the picture.

 

You're two torque wrenches away from owing your friend a bike, and you can't dig out of a whole with torque wrenches.

Fred's photo shows the pips, small holes in the intake and exhaust cam lobes, visible between the long camshaft caps and the chain sprockets.

 

You can see one intake and one exhaust cam lobe between the end of the long caps and the sprockets.

 

If you had a reverse view of Fred's photo we could see a vertical line on the end of the caps adjacent to the cam lobes with pips.

 

The side of the cap is flat and perpendicular to the camshafts.  There's a vertical line in the center protruding out just a bit from those flat surfaces.  If the timing is correct the vertical lines with align with the pips.

 

If you lay a thin flat object like a right triangle or any object with two straight edges with a right angle down on top the cam lobe, push one of the edges up flat and square against the cap and slide the right angle corner against the vertical line on the cap you can easily and precisely eyeball whether the pip is aligned correctly with vertical line on the cap.

 

With the triangle down touching the lobe you can eyeball the pip's location with great precision.

 

I believe there are 38 teeth on those sprockets so a one tooth timing error would be an almost 10 degree error of misalignment for the pips.  A 10 degree error is very easy to see with the right triangle technique.

This thread reinforces some things for me. I have much respect for Pants and others on this forum. If it's troublesome for Pants, I sure as hell am not even gonna try. Besides, many years ago I tried checking valves on a 750 Sabre (screw-type adjustment but four cams!) and wound up taking it to the shop to get it done right. Lesson learned. I have not attempted it since and have no inclination. I admire and envy the folks with the ability to do these things, but I respect those, too, who know better than to try it.

Pips = the dimples in the back of the #4 right-most cams that I posted a picture of previously.  Those holes can be used to confirm the proper cam timing, but I would also attempt to use a mirror and view the marks on the right end sprockets. 
 
Two alignment checks are better than one.  

Okay, NOW I understand why you were so grouchy earlier about the importance of the #4 end!  It is great to have you here but I do not always understand your logic or your irritability.  I guess if you had tried to explain it then it would have made no sense.  Thanks for the info and for being so subtle with your "I told you so".  Good Stuff, my friend.
 
 

Pants, the more time you throw at this to try to fix it yourself, the more money you will have to pour on it later.
 
The questions you are asking, and the follow up questions that you are asking, indicate that it is not really fair to the owner of this bike that you continue to work on it.
 
Find a dealer with a good mechanic and trailer it to them.
 
The bad news is that this is their busy season, and the bike may have to wait for some time.
 
The other thing you could do that might be fair to your friend is accidentally back over it in your driveway ... of course I'm kidding (wink, wink, wink), but you get the picture.
 
You're two torque wrenches away from owing your friend a bike, and you can't dig out of a whole with torque wrenches.

I 1000% disagree.  The questions he is asking, the information he has received, and in fact this entire thread has boosted my confidence tremendously.  With the best minds of this forum backing him, 'Pants can fix anything.  At this stage, I am prepared to bring both my '15 and Dad's '07 over there for him to do the valve check/adjustment to them.

 

I won't of course, because I would rather take up his time with riding on bikes instead of working on bikes, but that is not the point.

 

Another factor to consider is that MikeP (the bike owner) went into this with both eyes open.  He and Joey have been riding together and working on their bikes together for some time.  IF the bike were toast, which it is not, he would be shouldering at least half of the responsibility.  Mike is a smart guy, he has confidence in his friend.  I do too.

I agree RFH. I was in a similar situation with someone else's bike. Had already done 2 valve clearance checks, but didn't have to adjust anything. I think they are approaching it the same way I did. Ask a lot of questions here and not rush the job. I got frustrated a few times, so I just walked away. They will earn some valuable experience. It really isn't that difficult either. It is the unknowns and needing piece of mind that you get it back together properly. The FSM is good, but reassurance and assistance from the forum collective is invaluable!  Rock on Joey and Mike!

 The torque spec for the cam bearing caps is 10 Nm/7.4 ft/lb.Compression normal approximately 198-228 psi as Yamaha FSM say.

 

 The torque spec for the cam bearing caps is 10 Nm/2.25 lb.Compression normal 15-16 bar/198-228 psi as Yamaha FSM say.

 

10 Nm = 7.4 ft/lb & the bar to psi is correct.  You won't measure the full 230 psi, typically it will be in the 200 - 210 psi range.

I was never being grouchy.  I just gave some information that I thought may be helpful in setting the timing. 

 The torque spec for the cam bearing caps is 10 Nm/2.25 lb.Compression normal 15-16 bar/198-228 psi as Yamaha FSM say.

 

10 Nm = 7.4 ft/lb & the bar to psi is correct.  You won't measure the full 230 psi, typically it will be in the 200 - 210 psi range.

You are right!My fault when i did the conversion..

There is a good convert utility here. It is free to download, it used to be possible to make a payment via Paypal but that seems to have disappeared..............

Well - we pulled it apart and the motor spun freely without the cams in it.

 

Next, we were able to put the cams in time with the crank following the instructions in this thread.  Assembled, we spun the motor by hand 8 revolutions and every two, all marks came right back to right.

 

Next, we checked the valve lash and it was adjusted with the new shims as we expected all around.  I feel this important because even if a valve is bent slightly, a different reading of some sort should be expected on that valve lash measurement.  Does anybody agree with this?

 

So far, so good.

 

Uh... maybe not.

 

Next up, we bought a compression tester from O-reiley Auto Parts and here's what we got:

 

#1 - 180

#2 - 175

#3 - 180

#4 - 100-105

 

All seem low based on info in this thread, but that could be the gage and other factors (cold engine).  What worries me is the difference in the #4 hole.  Based on the previous info on this thread, I know that the intake camshaft was out of time, and the #4 intake lobes were straight down.  I'm hoping that I pushed the piston with the valve, but who knows?

 

Two things may have affected the c-test.

 

1.  We did it with the motor stone cold.  FSM says to do this test with the motor hot.  I suppose metals to expand and perhaps seal up better at running temperature.

 

2.  The battery didn't seem to have full punch.  We put the battery on the tender overnight and will check it again this morning.

 

Also - each cylinder holds pressure on the gauge, but I think the gage may have a check valve in it, so that doesn't mean the pressure is holding in the hole - yes?

 

I don't know how to do a leak down test.  I'm going to try to research that this morning.

 

Edit - I learned about this on Youtube.  I'm going to see if we can rent a tester at the parts house.  I have compressed air.  The Chilton's manual doesn't give a leak down speck (what % of air leaking is acceptable).  Also, what air pressure does Yamaha say we have to pump in the cylinder before the leakage is measured?  Can anyone attest to this spec per the Yamaha FSM?

 

We couldn't get the valve cover gskt to stay put up re-assembly, so we cleaned and dried it up and put a little RTV in the cover, set the gskt in place, and allowed it to dry over night.

 

We will see what happens this morning.  I'm inclined to believe, again - that I can't hurt it anymore than I already have - if I have at all.  I think we are going to put it back together and see what happens.

I don't have a warm and fuzzy feeling about #4.

Good luck with it. Hopefully the low reading has another cause. In any case, you don't really have much to lose by firing it up since you know the timing is correct. Once it has been run (if it will run) you can do the compression and leakdown tests again. If the valveis bad, I'm wondering if an Ebay engine replacement is a cheaper bet than the head work. 

Since it is still open, are you absolutely certain that the clearances on #4 are exactly what you expected? If they are, I really do not see how a valve could be bent and not seating properly. 

You can repeat the compression test after squirting some oil in cyl 4. If compression is then good it would indicate the rings were the leak, which would have absolutely nothing to do with the valve issue.


I would finish putting it back together and see how it runs. 

Oops - posting error. 

The cold compression readings are typical.

 

Put a little oil in cylinder #4, spin the engine a bit and try the test again.  If the readings go up the issue is the rings on the piston sticking.  This is common for the FJR and a little Yamaha Ring Free will sort it out.  Ring Free is highly concentrated so read the container and dose accordingly.

 

If a valve were  bent you would have almost no compression.  I'm pretty sure it'll be sticking rings (or a gauge that wasn't fully threaded in and sealed).

 

Edit:  I see Fred posted the correct troubleshooting process while I was typing in the Spark thread.

The #4 difference is meaningless without a baseline of what it was before. As has been stated, rings can cause low compression just as much as valves. Also, if there's a valve problem that was already there, such as a burned valve or a carbon deposit, you again might be reading what you'd have read prior to the work. A leakdown would tell you more about that.

 

Since it goes around cleanly by hand, you're not sticking a valve into a piston. It's ready to run, then you can repeat the compression check when warm.

A leak down test with the engine on the  COMPRESSION stroke @ TDC for the cylinder being tested will tell all.  (engine locked down so it WON'T SPIN OVER)

 

It'll give you a good idea of the health of the internals.  

 

You'll either hear air come out of the TB's (intake valve(s), exhaust (exhaust valve(s), or crankcase-(piston rings)

 

Per OTC, a difference of 5 PSI between the cylinders is satisfactory. 10-15 PSI, you need to start digging..

 

This is what I use and seems to be very accurate... : https://www.otctools...kage-tester-kit

 

With 100 PSI on compression on #4, I suspect a valve is bent there...

However they were turning the crank by hand. Suspect other causes that ion beam and others pointed out. 

The leak down test will just confirm if the head needs to come off for certain.  

 

Weather the valve got just slightly bent, not enough to seat FULLY or something else, 100 PSI is NOT good..

A little late for this job.  But a couple tricks others might keep in mind for when they do this.  Some of this may be obvious and you may have already done it.  In no particular order:

1) Pull the spark plugs.  Makes turning the cylinders way easier.

2) Put a long screwdriver into the #1 cylinder spark plug hole.  Makes it very to visually see when you are approaching TDC on that cylinder.

3) Take a ton of pictures before every single step.  Digital film is cheap and the ability to go back and see what something was earlier is incredibly handy.  Take pics from every conceivable angle, close ups, overall shots, everything.  It can all help if you make an oops!

4) The markings on the cam sprockets are indeed a pain to align since the frame is in the way.  I think they were designed assuming you had the engine out of the frame and on a workbench.  So scribe a copy of the alignment mark that you are matching to on the backside of the sprocket.  Makes it much easier to see alignment during reassembly.

5) Use zip ties with different colors to indicate both which is intake and which is exhaust,  You can also put the zipties through the holes in the sprockets so that they (roughly) line up with the cylinder head.  Makes it very easy to immediately see if cams are aligned properly.

 

 

Hope this helps

- Colin

Just letting you guys know you can stop stressing over the low reading on #4.  The advice given by ionbeam and Fred W about squirting oil into that cylinder brought the pressure up.  I am quite certain hppants will be along shortly to share the results of his work.  I would tell, but it is not my story...

Good news for the owner. The low reading may have just been a dry cylinder after the engine sitting for a while. He can redo the test after running it and getting the engine warm and the oil redistributed, or just forget about it and ride it. Unless it doesn't run right I sure the hell wouldn't be ripping the engine apart any further. 

I love a story with a happy ending and this one will not disappoint.

 

I searched high and wide for a leakdown tester, but could not find one in town to ether, buy, beg, borrow, or steal.  So we put that issue aside and checked in on this thread.  Happy to hear from Ionbeam, Fred, and others, we decided to squirt about 10ml of oil into the #4 hole.  I rotated the crank by hand about 5 revolutions to try and circulate the oil.  Compression test on this hole  bumped up to just under 150 psi.  Very encouraged, we decided to press on.

 

We buttoned up the motor, double (TRIPLE) checked everything, and .....

 

 

 

 

Once the engine was up to full running temperature, the large hose behind the coolant pipe was seeping a little, so we broke for lunch.

 

In the afternoon, we were able to sync the Throttle bodies (Cylinder 2, 3, and 4 were all off from #1) and seal everything up.  We adjusted the throttle cables and even re-torqued the engine mounting bolts (both bolts for the frame sliders were not tight enough).

 

We did not perform another compression test to see if things are more normal after the motor is up to operating temp.

I followed Mike on a 40 mile test ride and everything is good to go.

 

Few things learned to wrap this up:

 

1.  We used liquid paper to highlight the timing marks on the outside of the cam gears.  That helped a ton and with a more directed light beam, we were able to use line of sight down the top plane of the cylinder head to confirm good timing.

 

2.  We did transfer some penciled marks onto the inside of the cam gears and that helped to get us on the right tooth.

 

3.  Intech's "leading a tooth" method was the shit and was very helpful in setting the cams on the right tooth.

 

4.  If I was just checking valves or changing the CCT, I would not remove the timing rotor cover.  However and otherwise, I absolutely would.  There is a plug you can remove to simply turn the crank (you can also spin the wheel with the bike in gear), and there is an inspection bolt that you can remove and look at a mark that is supposed to show you #1 TDC.  But for my money, I'll spend the $7 on a cover gskt and see the proper timing mark on the crank gear with my own eyes.

 

5.  A small squirt of silicon spray on the cooling pipe barbs was very helpful in installing the pipe (especially on the big hose).

 

6.  I think this has been mentioned elsewhere, but rotating that hose clamp for the big hose about 45 degrees clockwise makes it much easier to install and tighten.

 

7.  I need to stop over thinking the valve lash.  I have some "go or no go" feeler gages.  Earlier this week, I called Friendly Yamaha to discuss the situation and see if they would be willing to put it back together if it came to that.  This guy told me that DIY mechanics over think valve clearances way too much.  The spec given from Yamaha is a go or no go spec.  He said that if at 26,000 miles (for example), you check the exhaust and a 0.007" feeler gage can fit in (tight or otherwise), then it is in spec and you can leave it alone.  Yamaha offers this spec such that even if the lash is at the tightest point of the interval, then it won't tighten enough over the next 26,000 miles to cause engine damage.  At the next check, it will need a different shim.  But at this check, it's a "go" and you can leave it alone.  Forget about this "loose 7" or "tight 6" crap.  It's either a go or a no go, plain and simple.

 

Finally, and MOST importantly, we couldn't have finished without you guys.  Admittedly, we probably wouldn't have started in the first place without you guys anyway.  But I'm humbled by your willingness to help.  I hope to return the favor in my own way some day.  I sincerely appreciate your advice, one and all.

 

Tomorrow, I think I will go for a ride....

 

Kudos to bothayooz guys. My salute and a hearty handshake!