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2007-03-20 Sick 2006A Cylinders 3 & 4 low compression

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Cylinders 3 & 4 low compression  

Posted 20 March 2007 - 11:49 AM

Bad news my way today. ~23k 2006A, tech at Powerhouse reports back cylinders 3 & 4 at 60 & 80 psi respectively. Cylinders 1 &2 at 180, 190. Leaking past intake valves. Covered by warranty but still.. mad.gif No wonder it was running rough at Death Valley.

I noticed about 4 months or so ago that my mpg went from 40's to low 30's.

Posted 20 March 2007 - 12:54 PM

Additional info

1. The tech, Ivan, is Yamaha gold certified, has worked on various engines for me, he really appears to know his shit which is good for me. I'm trying to say I've had very favorable experiences with him before.

2. Ivan says the intake lash is OK. He didn't take actual measurements other than to see that .005' would pass through. Kind of a go/no-go test.

3. Ivan did both a pressure test and leakdown test.

4. The leakdown test indicated air leakage past the intake valves.

No Power Commander, air and oil filer changed every 3 - 5k miles, running dino/syn Champion motor oil. Same stuff I've run in my MX 4 stroke engines that much higher stressed engines. No problem with oil consumption. Doesn't burn any, actually.

I wonder if I have a quiet 2006 ticker? dry.gif

Posted 20 March 2007 - 03:09 PM

A quote from the GF "Really? That just sucks....Can they fix it? Well...I have two words for you...HARLEY DAVIDSON....." hmm, fjr at 23k miles = major service, HD at 130k+ and no problems... still like the FJR though, it scratches a different itch rolleyes.gif and this too will pass.

QUOTE

If 3 and 4 are that low and the intake valve clearances are adequate (sounds like they are) and air is leaking past the intakes on a leakdown test it sure sounds like there is some sort of problem inside the motor. Intake seating/sealing problems are somewhat unusual in my experience so what may be going on is a bit of a mystery. For two cylinders to have low compression like that and both to leak past the intakes really deepens the mystery. I can't think of an alternative to opening it up at this point. The compression test indicates that there is a problem in 3 and 4 and the leakdown confirms it if he is hearing leakage in the intake from both 3 and 4 so sounds like time to take a look. I'm just at a bit of a loss as to what could cause such a dramatic loss in compression in two adjacent cylinders like that. Off the cuff it almost sounds like a head gasket is leaking between the two cylinders. That would explain low compression numbers and high leak downs and the effect on two adjacent cylinders and the leak down test from 3 could be hissing into 4's intake valves and vice versa due to rotating the crank to run the leak down test. Since the compression numbers are low and nearly the same in 3 and 4 it would make you think the "same" leak is occuring which is highly unlikely if it was a valve problem or something. You would expect the compression to all over the map....not the same in the two bad cylinders. Tends to make me think head gasket even more. The motor in the FJR seems to have no history of head gasket problems though.....sooo.....hmmmm.......

Like I said.....it will be interesting to see what they find.....

My knee jerk answer is head gasket failed in the narrow bridge between the two cylinders.

Any history of overheating or eating coolant or anything like that?



Jestal - a common problem causing both cylinders to leak was my initial thought too. No problems with overheating, ever, even during the hot summer months (+110 no problem), but, for the first time just last week, I did add approx 6 oz of coolant as the coolant level in the overflow was at minimum with a warmed engine. I was thinking that perhaps not all of coolant made it back to the system subsequent to the CC install which required coolant draindown.

Posted 20 March 2007 - 07:05 PM

QUOTE(kaitsdad @ Mar 20 2007, 07:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don, this Sucks. big time.

Might this be related to what you thought might be a fuel starvation problem earlier?

I'm assuming that you went to the dealer without resolving the problem, and he found the low compression?



Hal, Yes, this does suck but then again I'm very fortunate to have a good dealer and warranty *and* another bike to ride. This repair is covered by the 12 month original factory warranty, I also bought the YES policy.. for you newbie's on the fence about purchasing an extended warranty don't be foolish.. rolleyes.gif

..and no, the Death Valley problem was solved by eliminating the CA bike charcoal canister. I still want to find another 06 Kali bike and test with my highly accurate blowometer... keep it pure boyz.. blink.gif Seriously, the vent through my cap and the vent through the charcoal canister require ~ the same amount of pressure, which really surprised me.

Wouldn't it be really interesting if 3&4 intake valves show signs of lean combustion?

QUOTE(jestal @ Mar 20 2007, 07:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(RTSR1/FJR @ Mar 20 2007, 08:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Leakdown can show a blown head gasket also, it'll be bubbling in the radiator.



Possibly.....but not always. If the head gasket is leaking in the bridge between cylinders it very well may not be breached in a coolant passage. If the leakdown test causes bubbling in the cooling system then you can be pretty sure it is a blown head gasket. If the leakdown test does not cause bubbling in the cooling system it can still be a blown head gasket.

I imagine they are going to tear into it and it may be apart by the time you ask but the tech could pressurize 4 with the leak down tester and listen thru the spark plug port of 3 with a piece of hose. If the head gasket is gone between cylinders then you should be able to hear the air leaking past into 3.



Jestal, I will call the dealer, Powerhouse of Paso Robles, first thing in the AM to see if they can do the test you suggest.

..and on another note, I can't imagine how much stronger it will run when all 4 are banging out equivalent ponies. I'm somewhat surprised I didn't feel the (put a number here) percentage loss of HP with 50% of the cylinders running at less than 50% efficiency. Honestly, I couldn't tell *any* difference in performance. The bike would still run at 130, accelerated out of corners like no other bike I've been on, street wise.. the only real difference I could discern was a loss of mpg. To hear that the problem was this serious came as a complete surprise. glare.gif The uptake from idle seemed smooth and vibration free. No sounds like what Hal just had with one cylinder dead. The bike started easy, accelerated from idle with authority, hit the powerband just fine in the upper rpm range, didn't stumble up high etc etc.

Then again, slow deterioration of performance is much harder to discern than the catastrophic failure. Especially since I don't wring the neck of this particular chicken all that often. Makes me think that maybe SkooterG and his manly style of riding are needed for these high performance ponies..

In the meantime, the 134k+ miles HD just got pressed into service.. She will be my ride until Crzy8 is healthy again.

BTW just proof read this post.. and the 130 thing is just because I'm chicken. I've not run the bike to full warp speed, ever. Remember, I'm the CBA CEO..

Walked away :) Posted ImageIs it really crashing if you don't fall down?--

Posted 22 March 2007 - 02:38 PM

Supposedly parts have been ordered and should be in today/Friday. Hopefully soon. I miss warp speed. glare.gif

Walked away :) Posted ImageIs it really crashing if you don't fall down?--

 

Posted 23 March 2007 - 12:52 PM

QUOTE(jestal @ Mar 23 2007, 01:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(dcarver @ Mar 23 2007, 10:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Still don't know for sure. The tech ordered parts on a shot gun approach.. New intake/exhaust valves, head gasket, guides, seals, etc. I'll keep ya'll posted when more is known.

Sounds like they have no idea what is wrong. Too bad....a few simple checks would tell them for sure. I cannot believe the reluctance of a dealership or tech in performing some rudamentary diagnosis. They spend two or three times as much on parts just shot gunning sometime. But....they get paid by warranty for replacing parts.....LOL.....not diagnosing in many cases so I guess I know the answer to my question.

Get more info as it comes in and get some pics of the used head, head gasket, etc. if at all possible. Curiosity is killing the cat.

Yeah, the cat is tweaked. I'm in a situation where the tech is really good, but not a real 'people person'. I'm having a somewhat hard time understanding why he hadn't torn it down further to lookie lou, but then again, he's not the owner and has many other bikes to work on. So I kind of understand his perspective; it's MY baby not his. Order the parts, move on to other bikes, find out what's really wrong with this one later. It's not the way I would do it though. dry.gif

Walked away :) Posted ImageIs it really crashing if you don't fall down?--

Posted 23 March 2007 - 12:52 PM

QUOTE(jestal @ Mar 23 2007, 01:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(dcarver @ Mar 23 2007, 10:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Still don't know for sure. The tech ordered parts on a shot gun approach.. New intake/exhaust valves, head gasket, guides, seals, etc. I'll keep ya'll posted when more is known.

Sounds like they have no idea what is wrong. Too bad....a few simple checks would tell them for sure. I cannot believe the reluctance of a dealership or tech in performing some rudamentary diagnosis. They spend two or three times as much on parts just shot gunning sometime. But....they get paid by warranty for replacing parts.....LOL.....not diagnosing in many cases so I guess I know the answer to my question.

Get more info as it comes in and get some pics of the used head, head gasket, etc. if at all possible. Curiosity is killing the cat.

Yeah, the cat is tweaked. I'm in a situation where the tech is really good, but not a real 'people person'. I'm having a somewhat hard time understanding why he hadn't torn it down further to lookie lou, but then again, he's not the owner and has many other bikes to work on. So I kind of understand his perspective; it's MY baby not his. Order the parts, move on to other bikes, find out what's really wrong with this one later. It's not the way I would do it though. dry.gif

Walked away :) Posted ImageIs it really crashing if you don't fall down?--

 

Posted 23 March 2007 - 08:09 PM

QUOTE(jestal @ Mar 23 2007, 07:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Given the fact that the dealer service may be pretty busy at this time of year getting bikes serviced, etc.... they are probably playing it safe and, realizing that something major is wrong, ordering any and all the parts that could be affected. No sense in taking it apart now and trying to keep track of all the loose parts and such. Just R&R when the new pieces are in. Just try to seet talk the tech into letting you see the old parts when they are finished so we can figure out what really went wrong.

I don't know what the track record is for motorcycle dealers......but......car dealer service departments are not very good at determining the true root cause for failures. They will figure out what is wrong and repair it or replace the appropriate parts with no problem. Gets the customer on the road and happy so their priorities are correct. But do NOT assume they can be relied on to take the failed parts and determine what actually caused the failure. Over the last 30+ years I have found them to rarely be correct with the actual diagnosis of the failure mode. They always have their version of why the failure occured ..... but it is rarely right..... That is why anytime we introduce a new product (or engine for example) it is strictly and R&R item for the first year at least. That is so we can tear it down and analyze to determine true root cause of the suspected failure. I once saw an engine returned from a dealer with an "incurable" oil leak at the rear main seal. The dealer had replaced the seal (twice), replaced the crank, regasketed the lower end of the motor, etc. and finally replaced the engine to cure the "engine oil leak". At first glance the root cause of the incurable engine oil leak was evident. The power steering pump was leaking on top of the engine and the oil was running down the valley and out the back onto the rear main seal. The engine was fine. That is why warranty data can be so misleading.....and why you need to see the parts they replaced if you can to REALLY see what was wrong.

Jestal - I'll be at the dealer mananna to take a look. I doubt anything has been done so far. I'll request all old parts - gaskets, valves, guides, etc. Not sure if they will allow that but I can ask. The other side is that many times the mechanic will simply rip-tear the old parts out, gaskets come to mind, thus forever ruining the 'evidence'.

..so, if I get all the parts and ship them to you, my cost, you'll examine and post up your findings? rolleyes.gif

Walked away :) Posted ImageIs it really crashing if you don't fall down?--

Posted 24 March 2007 - 11:14 AM

QUOTE(charismaticmegafauna @ Mar 23 2007, 10:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Could it have been over-revved and a couple of the (heavier) inlet valves kissed a piston? If so, that'll be evident upon dis-assembly -- or, whatever is causing the compression loss.

The over-rev question has come up several times so I'll state as fact this bike has never been over-revved *that I know of*. I have never personally missed the shift or downshifted to early or othewise caused the bike to hit the rev limiter. I'm just a CBA guy, we have little need/desire to hit the limiter..

MadMike - Thanks for the reminder about head bolts.. I'll call to see they have those on order.

EDIT - the main tech wasn't working today so I have no new update..

ps - good to see ya on the board FastJoyRide! Long time no talk..

Walked away :) Posted ImageIs it really crashing if you don't fall down?--

 

Posted 26 March 2007 - 05:35 PM

Examined my scoot today. Snuck into the service dept as no one was looking.. located her over in the corner, rags over the cams making a FMEA zone.. lifted the rags and saw.. nothing really new. Looks just like my 79 Kz1300, just smaller and more compact. Sure, the cam drive chain is on the right side instead of centrally located, but, all in all, pretty much the same. Makes me want to perform my own work next time. Different story though, that thought is..

Spoke to the service manager, Vince. Asked to see a list of the parts ordered, he was very open to show, even printed the list out. I noticed, thank you MadMike2, that head bolts had NOT been ordered. Vince immideatley asked Ivan, the tech, if they were needed, I was pretty sure I heard a DOH! YES!... So, in this case, the informed consumer was actually correct.. hooray for us I say.

So all the parts should be in mananna, the young girl will have her skirt fully lifted.. I requested to view/examine all the parts, Vince was cool with that but did say the parts were going back to Yamaha as 'they have expressed specific interest' in this case. hmm. just my luck, eh?

So, will keep ya'll posted and Thanks so much for all your helpful WOW. (words of wisdom)

Oh, the power of the internet. I mentioned there were about 1,000 folks *really* interested to see what caused this failure, on fjrforum.com, and boy did the eyebrows lift! rolleyes.gif

Walked away :) Posted ImageIs it really crashing if you don't fall down?--

 Posted 26 March 2007 - 05:35 PM

Examined my scoot today. Snuck into the service dept as no one was looking.. located her over in the corner, rags over the cams making a FMEA zone.. lifted the rags and saw.. nothing really new. Looks just like my 79 Kz1300, just smaller and more compact. Sure, the cam drive chain is on the right side instead of centrally located, but, all in all, pretty much the same. Makes me want to perform my own work next time. Different story though, that thought is..

Spoke to the service manager, Vince. Asked to see a list of the parts ordered, he was very open to show, even printed the list out. I noticed, thank you MadMike2, that head bolts had NOT been ordered. Vince immideatley asked Ivan, the tech, if they were needed, I was pretty sure I heard a DOH! YES!... So, in this case, the informed consumer was actually correct.. hooray for us I say.

So all the parts should be in mananna, the young girl will have her skirt fully lifted.. I requested to view/examine all the parts, Vince was cool with that but did say the parts were going back to Yamaha as 'they have expressed specific interest' in this case. hmm. just my luck, eh?

So, will keep ya'll posted and Thanks so much for all your helpful WOW. (words of wisdom)

Oh, the power of the internet. I mentioned there were about 1,000 folks *really* interested to see what caused this failure, on fjrforum.com, and boy did the eyebrows lift! rolleyes.gif

Walked away :) Posted Image Is it really crashing if you don't fall down?--

 

 Posted 03 April 2007 - 03:51 PM

Latest update.

Head pulled, problem found.

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flecks, e.g. small particles of carbon under 3 & 4 valve seats preventing sealing. Tech says it would have gone away on it's own and must have just happened. So, on with a light seat dressing, clean up, and reassembly. At least this makes me feel somewhat better in that I didn't notice a lack of power because it most likely was running just fine until right before taking it in for service.

I'm not a tech but I remember dear old dad pouring water down the carb to make steam in the cylinders for the purpose of cleansing.. Makes me wonder if it would work here too. Or maybe just a 10k rpm tune up?

Also makes me wonder what caused the carbon build up; I run regular gas as recommended, only name brand service stations unless in Death Valley where I ran whatever I could find. Shit, I'm old, knit sweaters while wearing granny glasses and all, but the bike does see regular upper rpm use. Never lug, the minimum rpm while in motion is above 3k so I'm saying I don't dog the engine nor red line it either.

Thoughts anyone?

Walked away :) Posted Image Is it really crashing if you don't fall down?--

 

 

Up here in the Great White North our refineries make gasoline out of tar sand and the gas is not as clean as what you get in the States. That's why I'm pretty dilegent about running injector cleaner through the bike from time to time.

You may want to consider some sort of gas treatment from time to time to help keep the parts inside nice and shiny.

Good idea. KrZy8 sounds like she has a rod knock in cyl 1 - but it also migh be just carbon buildup. I fairly often use Techron to clean things out - but have recently gone to using SeaFoam...

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