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2015-08-04 KrZy8 No Start

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Posted 04 August 2015 - 06:52 AM

Twice now, over 3 weeks... ignition on, gauges sweep, fuel pump pumps. Starter spins nicely. Engine catches, runs for maybe .5 to 1 second, then dies.

 

Replaced battery.

 

Again this morning.. but with new battery, after 5 or 6 times it fired and ran great.

 

Any ideas?

 

TIA

 

dcarver

    Walked away Posted ImagePosted Image Is it really crashing if you don't fall down?--
    I wouldn't change a fucking thing; I've lived hard, played hard, and I ain't done yet. I've paid some severe penalties along the way, but the rewards have been so much greater; even if for just have participating in the game of life with utmost abandon. It's not who rides the furthest in a day, but rather in a lifetime. CBA member #1, IBA #31845 and very proud of both.
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    #2 RossKean

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    Posted 04 August 2015 - 07:50 AM

    Starting in gear or in neutral?
    Clutch pulled or not?
    Side stand up or down?
    Did display blank out during cranking?
    Any diagnostic codes thrown?

    A bit more info, please. 

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    #3 n2osx

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    Posted 04 August 2015 - 07:52 AM

    It's the loose screw above the seat....

    #4 RaYzerman19

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    Posted 04 August 2015 - 09:34 AM

    Older fuel with corn juice phase separation?  Ounce or two of Seafoam.

    You don't go to Freddy Beach for the beach....

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    #5 Allen_C

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    Posted 04 August 2015 - 09:40 AM

    It's the loose screw above the seat....


    ^^ this, definitely this! 

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    #6 wheatonFJR

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    Posted 04 August 2015 - 09:52 AM

    corn.

    #7 HotRodZilla

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    Posted 04 August 2015 - 12:40 PM

    Fast Starter Syndrome? 
    "To every man upon this earth death cometh soon or late.
    And how can man die better than facing fearful odds,
    For the ashes of his fathers,and the temples of his Gods"
    ---Horatius

    "...get the wind out of your vagina and mount up."
    ---FJROB 06/29/15

    #8 Jer

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    Posted 04 August 2015 - 12:45 PM

    Hey Don you are not getting much help are you?  Don't expect any from me.punk.gif

    Jer

    I like nice weather.
    Salem, Oregon (Summers), Bermuda Dunes, CA (Winters

    #9 dcarver

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    Posted 04 August 2015 - 01:16 PM

     Starting in gear or in neutral? Neutral
    Clutch pulled or not? Not pulled in
    Side stand up or down? Side stand up - on center stand
    Did display blank out during cranking? No. No clock reset. >9 vdc on radar detector
    Any diagnostic codes thrown? No codes thrown.

    A bit more info, please.

     

    Probably not gas.. many tanks have been used in between symptoms. hmmm..  Maybe the same station with bad tanks?

      Walked away Posted ImagePosted Image Is it really crashing if you don't fall down?--
      I wouldn't change a fucking thing; I've lived hard, played hard, and I ain't done yet. I've paid some severe penalties along the way, but the rewards have been so much greater; even if for just have participating in the game of life with utmost abandon. It's not who rides the furthest in a day, but rather in a lifetime. CBA member #1, IBA #31845 and very proud of both.
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      #10 RossKean

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      Posted 04 August 2015 - 01:54 PM

      Doesn't sound like gas to me. Since you are starting in neutral, there is no issue with sidestand or clutch interlocks. Panel didn't reset so battery is unlikely to be the problem. I would still probably make sure that the battery terminals are tight. Hopefully the fuel pump is OK. Might be worth checking to make sure that the plug is tight and not corroded.

      The only other thing I can think of is the possibility of a glitch in the kill switch. I would at least cycle it a few times; maybe take it apart and clean it up. Also make sure that the plug to the ECU is seated properly and there is no corrosion or dirt in it.

      Good luck! 

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      #11 dcarver

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      Posted 04 August 2015 - 02:06 PM

      Do diagnostic codes auto show on the display if thrown or does one have to go looking? I assume that the code would show on the display automagically?

       

      Fuel pp is original..

       

      ECU connector.. good idea and kill switch too. I know that my ecu connector no longe

      r has rubber gasket...

        Walked away Posted ImagePosted Image Is it really crashing if you don't fall down?--
        I wouldn't change a fucking thing; I've lived hard, played hard, and I ain't done yet. I've paid some severe penalties along the way, but the rewards have been so much greater; even if for just have participating in the game of life with utmost abandon. It's not who rides the furthest in a day, but rather in a lifetime. CBA member #1, IBA #31845 and very proud of both.
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        #12 n2osx

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        Posted 04 August 2015 - 02:09 PM

        Does the Gen 2 have the same type of "Big White Plug" under the tank?  To me it kind of sounds like a intermittent spark issue.  My spark was really week and my fan wasn't work quite right, So after studying the schematics, I found that plug, cleaned each prong and greased it up, and VIOLA!  Fan worked and spark was "Strong Like Bull!"

         

        But, not sure if this applies to Gen 2

         

        (I am not an actual Lawyer, but a paid spokesman/client...)

         

        Carl

        #13 Brodie

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        Posted 04 August 2015 - 03:49 PM

        "Does the Gen 2 have the same type of "Big White Plug" under the tank?"

         

        It has something like it up front, connecting the main harness to the faring sub harness. It locates behind the radiator filler cap. There's another spot to check on the '06 and '07 bikes, the multi relay block under/between the headlights. An intermittent connection can cause grief. Yamaha, in it's infinite wisdom, cheapened out on us and did not use a sealed connector at that spot - check for oxidation on the pins.

         

        Good luck, happy hunting!

         

        Brodie

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        #14 dcarver

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        Posted 04 August 2015 - 07:02 PM

        Almost a no start leaving work. Hmm, sure runs strong after it starts though. How strong? Strong as ever. Full pull to redline, 1st to 2nd wheelie, yep, no problem with FI or fuel delivery, compression. She runs hard.

         

        So then, well, I 'fixed' it. Now it won't even turn over the starter motor. How did I fix it?

         

        Simple. Stress test.

         

        Start, kill, start, kill, start, kill.

         

        I've been thinking the starter has been a tad bit slower than normal.. not much, just a bit. Kinda like a gen 1 cranking.  And that when releasing the start button things were a tad off, but not sure what.

         

        So, additional stress test.

         

        Left the starter button on just a bit after cranking and starting.. like maybe .2 seconds. And the engine instantly died. 

         

        Now, hitting the start button I can hear the 'Brodie Relay' click in.. and the fuel pp, but no starter noise or action. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Ground at engine case is good.

         

        Me thinks the BR is bad. And I just happen to have another one handy.  punk.gif 

         

        ...but that will be for later, had to get Wabs ready for work action tomorrow. 

         

        KrZy8 can sit while Wabs get the nod. 

         

        Relief hitter to the plate please!

         

        Edit - no diagnostic codes either.

         

         Edit Edit - By NOOOOOO way does this post infer that Brodie's work on the ignition switch relay harness is faulty. That relay has been in-service, under the tank, on top of the valve cover (hot n' hostile environment) for over, well, what now.. 3 years?) And all this is ASSuming it's the relay. Just wanted to be sure no thinks I'm flaming my good bud 'B.  punk.gif

          Walked away Posted ImagePosted Image Is it really crashing if you don't fall down?--
          I wouldn't change a fucking thing; I've lived hard, played hard, and I ain't done yet. I've paid some severe penalties along the way, but the rewards have been so much greater; even if for just have participating in the game of life with utmost abandon. It's not who rides the furthest in a day, but rather in a lifetime. CBA member #1, IBA #31845 and very proud of both.
          Posted Image

          #15 wfooshee

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          Posted 05 August 2015 - 06:44 PM

          Ignition switch has two circuits that have to stay connected. One is the full current draw of the ignition system, and the other connects the output of the sidestand/neutral monitor of the starter interlock to the ECU. If that circuit interrupts, the bike dies, just as if the sidestand were put down in gear.. On my Gen-I, if you crank with that circuit interrupted, you get a code 19, but it doesn't set a code just by being disconnected; only when cranking disconnected.

           

          That's not the one that usually goes bad, because it has a VERY low electrical load. Still, it can fail, as it has on my bike. I don't think it's bypassed by the Brodie kit, but I'm not sure.

          That second side of the ignition switch will kill the bike without throwing any codes. It only throws a code if it's disconnected while cranking. (And it WILL crank if disconnected, because the switch is behind all the starter interlock stuff, which has already given its OK.) So check it out, There are two connectors from the ignition switch. Disconnect them both. Put an ohmmeter across the one with the little wires. Turn the key on. Should have continuity. Wiggle the key without turning it off. Should not see the continuity flicker any. If you see it drop and come back, you've got a crummy connection in the key switch.

          I still haven't worked out in my mind why that line needs to be interrupted by the ignition switch. It's not a safety thing, that's all handled by the sidestand and other interlocks. Maybe the connected ground would set up a current drain in the ECU that can kill the battery. 

           

           

          KrZy8 IS throwing error codes... my bad for not fully reading the manual. I thought it would throw codes on the LCD panel when key switch was activated. 

           

          Diagnostic test 61, it indicates error codes 12, 19, 21, 22.

           

          I think Brodie and wfooshee are on the right track. 

           

          wfooshee, mine won't crank at all. I hear the Brodie relay click, healthily as in CLICK but that's it. 

           

          I did notice that my left button on the LCD display wasn't working. Lifted all negative battery leads, let sit for a minute or so, then reconnected. Still no left button action (trip meter 1,2, etc). Cycled all other switches (turn signal, emergency, brake front and rear) and all work. But still no left button. 

           

          Then, moved the windscreen up... and suddenly the left LCD button was active again.

           

          I think my next step is pull the lower cowling and see if I can find the connector Brodie referenced. I hope it's not under the nose.. I haven't had that piece off yet.

           

          Gotta go. I have only 1 hour 50 minutes of spare time M-Wed then need to clean up, get sleep, prepare for the work day.

           

          Thank you all for the help!

           

          dCarver n' KrZy8

           

          ps KrZy8 is real close to 200k. She needs to run again!

           

          Took a detour and looked at charging circuit voltages.

          ~30 VAC across alternator leads A B C

          15vdc at RR direct idling

          13.9 - 14.0 vdc at battery idling with krista's on

          Next step - pull the nose and look for loose or corroded connections.... e.g. DIAG mode not available until windshield moved..

          I fixed it good

          Cleaned and lubed ECU connector and other connectors in the general area.

          Now it won't start.

          Spins good, no fire.

          WOT = nothing.,

          Sigh.

           

           

          ... She has started every time now... but I'm going to continue on and pull the nose and look...

           
          As a nuclear technician you should know that you broke the main rule. When it works don't "fix" it.
          Just exactly how many thumbs do you have anyways?

           

          Hey, the reactor has to start and stop on command, yes? Gees, BillieBob, how long has it been since you've seen a neutron? :)

           

          Carver, the best way to check the spark is to connect the plug, stick it down your pants (or hold onto it) and hit the start button. You will know if there is spark immediately.

          You know what, I'm gonna do it, just to prove your theory. I'll post video when done.:no:

           

           

           
          When you say "pulling for Carver" what does that mean exactly?
           
          I know what it infers over here but just wondering...................
           

          You people from across the pond are truly bent. mcatrophy: Canuckistani Billy Fitz is talking about you!

           

          I still believe that our Amigo 'Zilla from Neuvo Mexico has the best solution yet, ese: "Carver, the best way to check the spark is to connect the plug, stick it down your pants (or hold onto it) and hit the start button. You will know if there is spark immediately." You know DC will do this!

           

          Hey now, it's good to know somebodies pulling for me! 

           

          ....and now back to the stuff. 

           

          SHE RUNS!

           

          Found a loose spider connection to the Brodie harness, the spider near the ECU. And yes, I had cleaned and lubed it while working the ECU connector. So, bad tech, no bone. I'm gonna fire that freaking idiot or hook up a spark plug to the sack in search of sparkage. :uhoh: 

           

          It has started every time the last12 or times.. not sure if it's really fixed as I don't have a smoking gun. It has a leaky fork seal so she'll be on the lift for a bit anyway. The lowers are off, I'll inspect all those connectors while contemplating pulling the nose to get to the connections coming from the instrument panel.

           

          Remember I still can't get to the CO screen on the panel, and couldn't get to the DIAG screen until the windscreen was raised.

           

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