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2020-11-20 Stalling/Dying off Idle, Rough Running, Low MPG

dcarver's picture
published by dcarver on Wed, 11/25/2020 - 17:20
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2006 Yamaha FJR1300 - KrZy8

 

Well, here we go again. KrZy8 throwing a hissy fit.

Running rough / stalling off idle. 32-35 mpg not high 30's low 40's as baseline. Unfortunately, KrZy8 sat for too long while I was away working.. ~ 3 months total.

Troubleshooting Plan

  1. Check Compression
    1. ​COLD 1=190 2=190 3=175 4=175 7.9% delta. Note.. I used a throttle lock.. and think it slipped at #3, 4 reading, closing the butterflys somewhat. Will test later.
  2. Check Air Filter for mice nest
    1. ​Clean. Air filter kinda dirty but not excessively bad. Replaced.
  3. Check/Replace injectors
    1. ​Had 4 refurbished RC Engineering from 2017 sitting in the spares box. Tested each using 9 vDc battery. 3 of 4 not clicking. Used a home made test fixture to supply gasoline under slight pressure to injector, whacked them with screw driver, and each then clicked and sprayed like a male cat.
  4. Replace fuel in tank with fresh
    1. ​Thinking some condensation might have formed.. and  I use SeaFoam, which FortNine recently demonstated is not the best storage solution.

On the lift, KrZy8 is crisp, GREAT. Fast throttle response.. Snappy!

So that's it for now. Now let's go ride..

 

Submitted by dcarver on Wed, 11/25/2020 - 17:57.

Good news, bad news 

Good news - Ran great for first 50 miles or so.. Snappy, high 30's mpg, STRONG

Bad news - Instantly... KaBoom, dropped a cylinder or so it seems. Exhaust rough, has the hollow sound of a cylinder not firing. WTFO? Decided to take 'main' roads home for easier tow truck access should it come to that.

MPG's now in low 30's high 20's.

Idles fine. But under load, missing, and very noticeably.

Then, MAGIC and instantly, running purrfect and MPG's climb to mid 40's. Oh Happy Day.

Then, BAM, and back to crapola.

What can it be?

  • Sticky fuel injector?
  • Water blob in tank, sloshing around, getting picked up once in awhile when cornering or whatever?
  • Ignition coils? (Idle is fine, throttle under no load fine, but under load missing... higher compression blowing spark out?) BTW, coils, leads, caps replaced with used eBay units 2019-08-10.
  • Spark plug going south?
  • Fuel pp failing (I can put the 2013 tank of the 2006 to test!)

Unfortunately, no auto store in Paso Robles or Atascadero has qty 4 CR8EIX NGK plugs.. Decide to soilder on to Paso, pick up 3 NGK's then to Atascadero for some fancy smancy E3 plug.. just for testing.

Current plan

  • Replace sparking plugs
  • Check battery connections + ground (even though starting and charging is working fine)
  • Pull and test FI's on bench with 9vdc battery and test rig
  • Re-run compression check when warm and known TB's fully open

Truly dissapointing but so it goes.

HOPEFULLY I'll find something really stupid I did.. like not fully connecting a FI connector or likewise..

Turkey day tomorrow.. but maybe I can get to the shop and play. KrZy8 already on the lift. 

 

Submitted by dcarver on Thu, 11/26/2020 - 09:05.

Occured to test fuel pump too.. Perhaps swap tanks with the 2013?

Thanks for help everyone. 


Checked Error Codes... 1 instance of #12 "No normal signals received from the crankshaft position sensor."

Cleared it, started and ran several times, no re-occurrence, don't think this is the issue..  as symptoms remain and w/o CS position signal, no run.. would be my guess.

SparkplugCapOlogy

All connections wire to boot tight.

Resistance across resistor kOhms
1 - 10.66
2 - 9.58
3 - 9.23
4 - 10.11

Resistance value *through boot* e.g. resistor installed
1 - 10.66
2 - 9.62
3 - N/A forgot to measure
4 - 10.11

Cleaned all resistors/ brass conductors

Trimmed plug wire back 1 mm, reinstall caps All wires looked clean, no corrosion, and As Found condition was tight.

Checked coil performance by sparking plugs via diagnostic mode. 1 & 4 Sat, 2 &3 Sat. Used old plugs for test, new plugs already installed.

Put tank back on and fired her up.

Running r o u g h.  Much worse. 

Might this be a fueling issue? Had siphoned off the tank to 1 bar indicated on fuel gauge, removed, then reinstalled for this test. Might there be debris or water at tank bottom causing issues? She ran much better before this latest evolution of checking wires and caps, resistors.

BTW, same 'hollow' sound. 

Thinks that make you go hmmmm.

OK. My bad. Gas tank too empty for test fire described above. 

Tried to drain all fuel from main tank using aux tank feed bung.. and nothing come out. Hmm. 
Turn tank upside down, try to 'slosh' gas to RHS where aux bung is and still no fuel coming out.

Can hear *some* fuel in that however.. 

Anyway, fired up and she's back to purring. 

Of course, she was purring like a big kitten right before instantly having a miss so who knows.

Me thinks I'll get to coil location anyway and look things over later.

Edit. Ran rpm up slowly to 7k, lots of sputtering and popping along the way. ~6.5k rpm large rpm fluctuations. Upon return to idle, idle is very low, ~700-800 where I normally have it 1.5k (I like high idles in my engines).

Hmmmmm

 

 

 

Submitted by dcarver on Thu, 11/26/2020 - 19:09.

 

2020-11-26 Pictures

RC Fuel Injection data sheet for injectors installed a couple of days ago. 2017.

Please install immediately the box says. Reason being is the injectors get sticky without gasoline lubrication.
3 of 4 were sticky.. But see below.

Un-Stuck them by appling gasoline via syringe and activate injector via 9 vDc battery. A good whack with a screwdriver helped too.

Old injectors.

New injectors. (refurb)

After installing new CR8EIX NGK plugs and testing spark on old plugs via Diagnostic screen.
Boots lubed with hi-heat silicone to facilitate removal next time.

On the lift again... Gotta get 250k outta her..

Resistor and plug.

Cyl 2

Cyl 3

As-Found wire after cap removal.

1 mm trimmed, ready for cap install.

More resistor/plug pics.

Local shops didn't 4 CR8EIX so one is a stupid E3 plug.

Plug comparison.

Good stuff.

 

 

Submitted by dcarver on Thu, 11/26/2020 - 19:16.
  1. Remove injectors then check spray pattern from Diag screen
  2. Install 2013 tank/fuel pp and see what happens
  3. ????

Submitted by dcarver on Thu, 11/26/2020 - 19:29.

 

https://candybuttorg.ipage.com/cba/node/424

https://candybuttorg.ipage.com/cba/node/433

https://candybuttorg.ipage.com/cba/node/448

https://candybuttorg.ipage.com/cba/node/517

https://candybuttorg.ipage.com/cba/node/747

https://candybuttorg.ipage.com/cba/node/765

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155044548603538&set=pcb.101550...

https://www.facebook.com/don.carver.94/posts/10155055476993538

 

 

Submitted by dcarver on Fri, 11/27/2020 - 12:30.

 

2020-11-27 - Rough Running Fixed

For I have met the enemy, and he is I.

Some worthless .02 cent tech forgot to fully snap this connector together.
Was preparing to remove injectors then test fire, with tank connected, via Diagnostic Screen.

Went to wiggle injector #1 connector, and the big gray connector came apart. 

SIGH. 

"It's really hard to be perfect." (Steve Burket)

Here's what she sounded like when sick.

2020-11-27 RoughRunningFIXED from dcarver220b on Vimeo.

Submitted by dcarver on Sat, 11/28/2020 - 17:38.
Well CRAPOLA.
 
The ride today went from running good to bad to great to barely starting, huge stumble off idle, 23 mpg to 41 mpg.
 
I still haven't found the root cause problem.

Submitted by dcarver on Sun, 01/17/2021 - 10:13.

A link to future work done... the saga continues...

Submitted by dcarver on Sun, 01/17/2021 - 10:14.

Clicky Me

Submitted by dcarver on Sun, 01/17/2021 - 20:12.

Edit

Unhappy day. Sigh. 
Reflashed  ECU from Ivan's Performance.
New TB from eBay.
Starts easy and runs good to 4k then massive popping in exhaust, both sides. 
No ECU error codes.

Installed new to me eBay, 17k mile TB assembly. Running diagnostics, #2 injector didn't click when activated. After several attempts, yes she fired up.
Not unusual for an injector that's not been run for awhile.

Ran diagnostics on TPS. Low of 17, max per FSM is 15.

And 104 at full throttle, should be 100.

So crap. The best I could adjust was 14 and 101. Can I do better? Have 4 other TPS units at hand...

Let's measure them out with an ohmmeter..
<Results to follow>
Found one with very close to specs, and 15, 100. Installed.

Position 1 and 2, as shown, is from the 'wiper' and full scale end of the poteniometer.

I used the best one I had per FSM specs. It set perfect at 15, closed throttle, and 100, full throttle. Repeatable.

Mounted the tank, fire KrZy8 up and she ran!

But not very well at first, expected. Been there before.. with engine swap, took a minute or so for the fuel rail to charge, discharge air, then she was happy. Not today
Anything above 4k rpm sounds horrible. Both exhausts pipe... Missing... which to me indicates not ignition, but fuel delivery? Runs great at idle, 2k, 3k.. but 4k+ and popping...

So replaced new to me FI injectors with old, refurb injectors from RC Engineering.. same result.. so not injectors..

Thinking either fuel pump failing (OEM, 2006, almost 250k miles = aLOT of gallons pumped) or clogged FP screen, or fuel pump relay. Discounting ignition issues as both exhaust stacks
have the same 'miss' at 4k and above..

Next thoughts..

1. Use 2013 gas tank/fuel pump see if problem goes away (fuel pp on 2006 bad, clogged, etc)
2. Change spark plugs, JIC
3. Shoot the bitch and be done with it?

Ideas, team FJR Peeps?

 

Submitted by dcarver on Mon, 01/18/2021 - 13:47.

Clicky

Submitted by dcarver on Mon, 01/18/2021 - 19:26.

Throttle Position Sensor Measurements...

I have 4 of these now.. so let's find the best one to install on KrZy8.. Very suprised at the difference between units.. And the TPS that arrived on the new2me fuel had a crack on the inside.. 

TPS Sensor # Idle - Ohms Full Throttle - kOhms Diagnostic Setting
1 203 2.4 0 - 124
2 308.2 4.6 6 - 117
3 .7K 3.8 16 -100
4 331 1.9 16-102

 

Submitted by dcarver on Mon, 01/18/2021 - 20:06.

SSo started the day with basics..


Travel through all diagnostic codes and see what's present.

Code History - 60, 61, 62. 60 = 0, 61=12, 62=4. Clear them all.
30 = fire plugs 1-4, OK.
31 = fire plugs 2-3, OK.
36 = injector 1, OK.
37, inj 2, OK.
38, inj 3, OK.
39, inj 4, OK.
50, fuel pp relay, it clicks.. located under front nose cowling...
Ok then, boldly forward..

Spark plug caps all tight
Install New2Me FI harness for top rail injectors
Install new spark plugs
Hard to start, add fuel to tank (substituted KrZy8 tank with Naomi tank and fuel pp, but near empty)
Error 13, intake air pressure (would not clear, my bad, did not connect after step 2)
Fire up, she runs GREAT! Smooth, clean, no popping at 4k +rpm, and with all the 'other' work sounds better than for long time...
Install OEM KrZy8 tank.. instant popping and bad behavior.. EUREKA!
So then, off to find a fuel pp used or new...]

250k plus miles.. I think can do.

...and to think last night I actually dreamed about parting KrZy8 out...

Per 1911... Endeavor to persevere!

I'm cautiously optimistic this is it.. Been chasing this issue for a long time.. 

So many Thank You's for all who have stepped forward to help.. 

When Covid is over, a fresh adult beverage for all is on me!

Submitted by dcarver on Wed, 01/20/2021 - 10:19.

 

2021-01-19 Fuel Pump Clean

With the 2013 FJR fuel tank installed, KrZy8 ran great. So it's  now time to look at the fuel pp of KrZy8.

Siphoned fuel from topside, removed pp, then siphoned remaining fuel from bottom side.
Some debris, not happy to see....

This pump has pumped more than 6,800 gallons! If does turn it out failed, it owes me NOTHING!

A good sign, lots of crap on the filter.. enough to impede flow to point of fuel starvation? I don't know.

Approximately 25% restricted. Remember screen has top and bottom side. Some  metal shavings, probably from drilling tank for aux tank fitting. And I thought I was super-careful..

Cleaned up. Used a tooth brush and contact cleaner.

The remaining obstruction wold not come off. Didn't want to damage the screen by using metal brush.

The debris.

Buttoned up and ready for testing.

Unobtainable, it did't' fix a thing. KrZy8 kind-a-sorta ran better, but still popping at 4k and above. I sure hope it *really* is a failing fuel pump and not that KrZy8 is pulling tricks 
on me running perfect with the 2013 tank for the 3 or 4 minutes... Remember this problem seems to mysteriously come and go instantly and it would be just like KrZy8 to run
me through the wringer and laugh the entire time..

FjRay may have a tank coming his way this weekend. If so, he's offered that fuel pp to me. Ray also has a brand new in box fuel pump tester he never used... So at least pressure could be
measured between the two FJR's. He says it has many adapters too, hopefully one will fit the FJR quick disconnect fuel line.

So until then...

It's a waiting game. In the meantime, installed all the plastic, finished up the airbox/seat hardware, removed the old Carver tape, cleaned and waxed the tank (looks GREAT) then installed brand new fresh Carver tape. At least it runs good enough to take off the lift.. e.g.. I'll be able to ride back up the lift and not have to push it... which I don't have strength to do.. hmmm, maybe that lift needs a small winch on the front side?

Submitted by dcarver on Thu, 01/21/2021 - 11:33.

 

2021-01-21 KrZy8 Test Ride w Naomi Tank

Been chasing a fuel delivery issue. Installed tank from 2013 FJR. Runs good on bench. First ride.

15 miles later, running GREAT. Ivan's ECU flash is wonderful.

Stopped to put jacket on, this lil guy said hi.

Adeilade school, Paso Robles west side.

Perfect weather day..

Old cemetery.

Another one.

CBD will cure you.. as long as you don't work nuclear power that is...

Entering Morro Bay.

The rock.

Downtown.

She sells sea shells...

Bike running GREAT. 

Waterfront.

And more.

Morro Bay power plant stacks. No longer in service.

Another view of the rock Morro.

State Park

Love riding my hood.

Hay seeds coming up. Need rain.

San Luis Obispo, Franks Hot Dogs. Hope they survive Covid-19 financially.

Bring those electric cars here.. <snicker>

Back to trailer. Ran great. New fuel pp or new2me needed..

 

 

Relive 'KrZy8 Test Ride Naomi Tank' from dcarver220b on Vimeo.

Submitted by dcarver on Tue, 01/26/2021 - 10:19.

Posted to fjriders and fjrfourm

5JW-13907-22-00 - does this include motor, pp, sending unit? KrZy89 sending unit is ok..  but want to at minimum replace motor and pump... given I found very small metal shavings on pp screen...

https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/yamaha/motorcycle/2006/fjr13abs-fjr13acv/fuel-tank

https://www.fjriders.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=5743

https://www.fjrforum.com/topic/178172-fuel-pump-part-number-question/

Submitted by dcarver on Wed, 02/03/2021 - 12:26.

2021-02-03 RC Engineering Cleaned Fuel Injectors Arrivve

Been chasing intermittent rough running and stumbling on KrZy8. Purchased yet another FI fuel rail from eBay, installed it. Decided to send 12 injectors to RC Engineering for cleaning and balance. Offered the second-best matched group of 4 to FjrForum and FjRider peeps. Duane, 1911, took me up on the offer.

 

Not cheap but worth the $$$

Boxing

Apparently RCE is now manufacturing injectors.

.

1911's set of 4

.

My set

Spares

Old filters

 

Submitted by dcarver on Fri, 02/12/2021 - 21:50.

Installed new Russ Collins refurb injectors today.. 

What a difference!

 Smooth idle,  great throttle response...

Well worth it.

Submitted by dcarver on Thu, 02/18/2021 - 20:06.

https://candybuttorg.ipage.com/cba/node/998

2021-02-17 KrZy8 New Fuel Pump

New pump. $382 cheapest I could find, RevZilla.

Big ol' box

Getting down to it..

Look at the full retail price, $442.78 <gasp>

Part number

Packaging

She's a thing of beauty.

Clean, squeaky Clean!

Back in the hole, but.... forgot to install the o-ring and had to pull it again. Apparently for $382 one doesn't get a new o-ring.

Scared me at first start. Would barely run. Even though I could hear gas sloshing in the tank, not enought for full pressurization.
Added 2.5 gallons, she started, stubmled for a minute or two then cleared her throat and sounds really happy.

Amazing how well a nearly 250k FJR can run after one 'tunes' all systems before finding the root cause problem.. :)  

 

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